Citizens! Give me the Wheel of Time Reread Redux, or give me… well, okay, not death. But, you know, something at least mildly dire!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 40 and 41 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post and this post, respectively.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 40: Damane
Redux Commentary
“This is a horrible thing. How can you do this to anyone? What diseased mind ever thought of it?”
The blue-eyed sul’dam with the empty leash growled, “This one could do without her tongue already, Renna.”
Renna only smiled patiently. “How is it horrible? Could we allow anyone to run loose who can do what a damane can?”
I’ve been mainlining a lot of comics-related stuff lately, and it occurs to me that there is an awful lot of similarity between this and some of the more dominant themes in the Marvel universe. The question of whether people with extraordinary abilities can be “allowed” to run free is pretty much the entire raison d’être of the X-Men, of course, but it’s also why I am so dreading the upcoming developments in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which will soon be tackling the Civil War storyline.
If you’re familiar with Marvel comics at all, you know what that is and why it’s relevant; if you aren’t, the phrase “Superhuman Registration Act” will probably give you a clue why it’s relevant, and why the entire thing gives me hives. (If you’re not familiar with it, I don’t recommend that you Google it unless you’re okay with being completely spoiled for it.)
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but personal agency is KIND OF A BIG DEAL to me. Kind of. You know, in that “seeing characters I love or even slightly like have it taken away from them makes me want to punch the world” sense. It made me see red here when it happened to Egwene, and it’s gonna make me see red when the next Captain America movie comes out, and just the thought of dealing with the inevitable frothing rage in my future on behalf of fictional characters is making me tired.
That said, yes, FINE, the dilemma of liberty versus security is a fundamental philosophical and political question that is eminently worthy of examination in fiction, and plus makes for great plot conflict, whatever, I know. That doesn’t mean I have to ENJOY it, she says, grumpily.
The difference, of course, between a Superhuman Registration Act and the damane/sul’dam crap is that, at least nominally, the former isn’t outright slavery—although it is the overwhelming potential for such legislation to become so, functionally if not in name, that makes it so dangerous. The latter, on the other hand, is absolutely 100% pure unadulterated bullshit slavery, and is therefore so deeply unacceptable to me that after having this for a first-ish impression of the Seanchan, it’s since been practically impossible for me to acknowledge that their culture might have any redeeming value whatsoever.
I said in the original commentary that it was Renna’s conviction that she was doing right that made me so angry about the whole situation, and that’s mostly right, but I think that it speaks more to my own conviction that the Seanchan are a fundamentally rotten and morally bankrupt culture. Human trafficking is still a terrible reality in the modern world, but at least there is practically no one left who would (publically) contend that it is anything other than a thoroughly evil enterprise. That’s a grim sort of progress, maybe, but it’s still about a thousand miles better than Renna’s brand of state-sanctioned sanctimonious “it’s for your own safety” rhetoric.
To which both me and Ben Franklin say: Bitch, please.
Chapter 41: Disagreements
Redux Commentary
“Well, why not? If the Seanchan have Aes Sedai fighting for them, why not Fades and Trollocs?” [Mat] caught Verin staring at him and flinched. “Well, they are, on leashes or not. They can channel, and that makes them Aes Sedai.” He glanced at Rand and gave a ragged laugh. “That makes you Aes Sedai, the Light help us all.”
As in the original commentary, I’m still a little puzzled by whether everyone knows Rand can channel here or not. Or rather, I’m puzzled as to how everyone doesn’t know, when Mat’s yelling about it in front of everyone like a moron. Because even after seeing himself betray Rand (presumably) on purpose in his “what-if” lives, he’s still apparently fine with outing him on accident rather than miss his chance to be bitter at him. Dumbass.
But then, Verin was okay with yelling at him earlier about being a channeler in front of everyone, too, so what the hell, people. Admittedly, it’s unclear in the “flicker” chapter whether anyone else was actually in earshot when Verin berated Rand for drawing too much of the Power, but Ingtar was definitely in earshot when Mat said the above, because they were all having a conversation with him not five seconds earlier. So even if Masema is only giving Rand the side-eye a minute later because of his Aiel prejudice and no other reason, it seems that Ingtar, at least, should know. That or he is either (a) a little deaf, or (b) spectacularly incapable of adding two and two to make “male channeler.”
Enh. My point is, it was confusingly written.
In other news, Rand, anytime you want to stop being a noble idiot that would be greeeat. Does anything good ever come of going it on your own? Wait, don’t answer that.
Also in the original commentary, I rolled my eyes at Ishy’s failure to read the Evil Overlord List and, therefore, fail to kill his opponent when he was weak and easily killable. At the time, I think, that was a fairly reasonable eyeroll, given what I knew, but it’s probably not anymore.
Ishy’s motives in the early books still read a little muddled to me, but it’s a lot easier to understand his failure to kill Rand when you know that his ultimate motive wasn’t world domination, but world annihilation. Ishy wanted to lose the war; he just also wanted everyone else to lose it with him. And for that, it seems he needed Rand to survive at least long enough to become a genuine threat.
Or something like that. He seemed to flip-flop a lot between wanting to lure Rand to the Dark Side, and wanting to let Rand continue on his Light-oriented path toward battling the Dark One directly and losing. I can only assume that either outcome would have got him the result he wanted, but given that they are completely opposing goals, you’d think he’d have wanted to pick one and stick with it.
Of course, there is the point that Ishy was also bugfuck crazy. So, you know. There’s that aspect of it as well.
Anyway, my point is that his earlier justification of not killing Rand just because he wanted to suborn him rang a little cliché, but that added to Moridin’s later revelation that all he really wanted was to commit the most spectacularly selfish suicide of all time definitely put a new spin on things.
And that’s about what I got for this post, so have a lovely mid-November week if your local climate allows such a thing, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
Sigh… Yes Egwene. This is what happens when you run off on your own half-cocked. Bad things happen.
New theory: Ishy wants Rand to turn to the Dark Side bend a knee to the Dark One because then it will be Rand’s soul that the Dark One keeps recycling each spinning of the Wheel. Ishy can have somebody else take over the burden. His soul can be left to be reborn every once in a few ages. Of course, the Pattern would demand a new soul to be the Dragon. When Ishy could not turn Rand, his sole option was the complete annihilation.
What makes Renna and other sul’dam so bad (and same goes with Seanchan society in general) is how they view damane: as animals, not humans. I for one would love to learn what happens to Seanchan society when it becomes general knowledge that as a result of the a’dam, sul’dam are able to channel themselves. Hopefully Seanchan society would crash under the weight of that knowledge.
If a sul’dam leashed Nynaeve, would she be able to channel even if she were not mad? How, if at all, would her block have impacted her channeling while on the leash?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Ishy tells Rand that he is not the DO, but Rand doesn’t understand, he is to busy denying that he is the Dragon.
The AS say that you can only channel spirit while sleeping. Is that true when you channel in TAR?
I sort of got the impression that Ishamael only became a true nihilist after he was re-incarnated as Moridin. That he realized that the Dark One was never going to let him rest, and keep bringing him back over and over.
Also, its hinted at very strongly that Ishy thought he was actually the Dark One by the time the story gets going. If that is the case, it makes perfect sense that his primary motivation would be to turn Rand. Not really sure how insanity and transmigration of souls goes in Randland, but if he regained any of his sanity or sense of self after becoming Moridin, it would make a ton more sense that his motivations and goals change once he realized he wasn’t the actual immortal personification of evil.
Mat glances at Rand and says “That makes you Aes Sedai, the Light help us all.”
At first I was confused about that too, wondering why Ingtar et. al wouldn’t be like WTFBBQPWN?!?
Then I removed the emphasis that my brain had put into that sentence on the word ‘you’.
See, when first reading, my brain made it seem like Mat looked directly at Rand and said “That makes YOU Aes Sedai…”
But if you remove that emphasis, and remember that Mat “glanced” at Rand, it can be taken that he’s saying “That makes someone Aes Sedai, the Light help us all.”
Like saying “If you’ve sworn to serve the Dark One, that makes you a Darkfriend.”
It’s definitely a confusing bit of writing, but I choose to believe that his inflection had Ingtar and anyone else in earshot thinking Mat was just saying anyone who can channel is Aes Sedai, and happening to be glancing at Rand when he said it.
Long time lurker, first time poster!
You rock Leigh, and this is probably the consistently nicest comment section I’ve ever seen!
As I’ve read your reread (and reread the series on my own) I’ve come to a conclusion that’s been jiggling around in my mind for a looooong time.
Ishamael (and the Dark One) want to destroy the Wheel of Time completely; end creation and let the DO escape from his prison fully/etc. There’s one catch, however. They CAN’T. If the DO and his forces act directly on the pattern, the pattern responds and counters (see Jesus Rand in TOM/AMOL). If the DO ever tried to break the wheel of time, it would counter him and he would fail (with that counter being cantered around the Creator’s Champion, the Dragon). HOWEVER, there is someone who CAN destroy the Wheel.
Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn. This is, and always has been, Shai’tan and Ishamael’s goal; convince the Dragon to destroy the World. That’s why he’s not killed early on. That’s why the big scene on Dragonmount is so important. That’s why, in the end, what’s the dark one’s play? Convince Rand that he should end the battle and go for a ‘tie’, total annihilation. That was ALWAYS the DO’s goal; destroy everything.
Why would the DO want to rule? Why would Shai’tan care about domination? It doesn’t make sense. But destruction is completely in keeping with his position as the counterpart to the Creator.
This is also why Moridin, despite his failures, was made Nae’blis; he alone among the forsaken knew the real, actual plan and agreed with it.
I could never see the Seanchan as anything other than evil after this introduction. By the end of the series, it reached the point that I was hoping they’d all get killed off, because the slavery issue was just so repulsive. That actually was one of the things that bothered me most when the series ended, that the Seanchan weren’t either destroyed or “fixed” somehow; I mean, I understand that it would have taken a completely ridiculous deus ex machina for them to somehow magically realize that slavery is wrong, abruptly end it, and live happily ever after, but I still wanted that to happen. Or for a giant foot to appear and squash all the Seanchan, I would’ve been cool with that too.
I hated the Seanchan so much that Mat’s association with them killed my love for him! He’d been my favorite character (after he stopped being That Guy In A Horror Movie Who Gets Everyone Killed) but the fact that he loves someone who’s pro-slavery really soured me on him.
This book is always the hardest for me to re-read (not that I do that often, heh heh heh), because of the Seanchan and the slavery; it just makes me feel ill, physically ill. I think that reaction is what Jordan was going for (being horrified by the idea of humans being treated as chattel, and generally sending a pro-equality message), but this book still pushes all kinds of buttons for me.
TL;DR – I hate the Seanchan. I hate them more than Gollum hates nasty fat hobbitses.
It’s too bad we’ll never see what Jordan imagined for them post Last Battle. Perhaps there were secret pockets of anti-slavery Seanchan.
Of course, the scary thing is, to them it’s not even slavery, because a damane isn’t truly human.
@7 I totally agree. Mat was never my favorite, but the whole Tuon thing just completely ended any liking I had for him.
He SAW Edesina and Teslyn. He even LIKED Teslyn, they were sort of friends. (BTW, one of my favorite relationships in the books, even though it was really short.) And still could love Tuon? Basically, it comes across as “well, he’s supposed to marry her because I said he would, so here ya go”.
I mean, I know Tuon as the person he met originally was not exactly all The Epitome of Seanchan….but once she became the Empress in truth, she pretty much was. And that never bothered Mat.
AndrewHB @2
The damane’s channeling ability is entirely under the control of the Suldam. If it can bypass even the inability to form weaves, block or no block, then it should bypass the block as well. That makes it a potential solution for the block, which the Aes Sedai will never discover now.
Not sure about your theory. Ishydin does not really have any evidence that it was always him and the Dragon facing off. I believe a discussion with Hawkwing revealed that he had occasionally served as the Dragon’s adversary? So.. Ishydin’s claim is borne out of little more than a sad combination of arrogance, self-delusion and insanity.
birgit @3
I believe the final battles prove that all channeling in TAR is just part of the dream. If Rand and Perrin were able to block balefire, then obviously, the balefire is less than real.
I disliked the Seanchan from the first time met them. The kowtowing required of those of lesser rank rubbed my republican sensibilities the wrong way from the start. That they have slaves, think slavery is perfectly alright and that it is such a completely abject form of slavery at the damane end just confirmed that I am really supposed to hate this culture.
The problem is, with the way Jordan wrote how their society works, I do not see a way to “fix” them that is not a bit a contrived. The cultural conditioning against free channelers makes it unlikely that sul’dams would try to learn and they can rationalize away their capability like Tuon did. A top down solution is difficult, because while the Empress is powerful if she is upholding Seanchan ideology. trying to make that kind of major cultural change is likely to earn an Empress an Ides of March.
The only way that does not seem contrived is defeat them and G.R.R. Martin has shown some of the problems with that.
The Seachan are such an interesting combination of an old school Asianesque caste system, magical slavery, KGB enforcers, and Texas drawls. Add on a very successful “Pax Romana” for the vast majority of their constituency and it creates a whole host of conflicting emotions that I think Rand rightly exhibits when he wanders their cities as a beggar with a tactical nuke or when meets with Tuon for the second time, wowing her retinue with his green thumb vocal skills.
Hate is too simple an emotion to level at any society, even the Seanchan.
Let the headdesking begin.
Still can’t get past the Seanchan cultural foibles, even if they did help save the day in the end.
Erunion @6
Your theory explains much. I like it.
Seanchan specifically reminded me of the Genosha issues of Uncanny X-Men. And could some Seanchan not look around at Randland and think, the White Tower is SNAFU but the continent is really doing fine with unleashed channelers.
And that their accent is supposed to sound Southern is another layer of ecch.
I have faith that the outriggers would include MAt saving Seanchan society and channelers. Even if just to save Bode.
Birgit @3- Spirit is the only one than can be channeled while sleeping. All 5 are available when awake.
Leigh-Leigh is a good damane but Leigh-Leigh needs to stop bashing her head on the desk and upsetting tables. And Leigh-Leigh needs to stop going to conferences and drinking so much or else no extra sweet for dessert. Nice Leigh-Leigh ** pets hair **
@8 lisamarie
re: Seanchan post-TG
We actually get a glimpse of the future through Aviendha’s trip to Rhuidean. Tuon was very pro-Randland (courtesy of Mat, I guess) and about to release Aiel damane before she got assassinated and the Aiel subsequently fucked everything up.
But in her vision the Aiel were very confrontational, lacking a purpose after the Last Battle, which I believe was the reason Tuon got offed by reactionary Seanchan adversaries. (I posted a more in-depth analysis earlier in the read, I’ll see if I can dig up a link)
Now that the Aiel were given a new purpose by Rand, I believe that Tuon will actually be able to go through with her reforms and eventually abolish the entire damane-slavery-clusterfuck.
@16 Randalator
That’s a nice thought. Personally though I believe that Tuon, the Aiel, and channelers in general are doomed, doomed, doomed.
You can throw a stone in a metaphorical river like Aviendha did by making Rand include the Aiel (and presumably choosing to avoid the names she heard for her future children), and it will make ripples sure, but the current is undeniable. The Aiel and Seanchan will eventually war. The wheel will turn. And inexorably, all the Powers That Be will be ground to dust.
We’ve already been told they will fade into history, then legend, them myth, and finally utterly forgotten. My guess is the Dragon’s Peace lasts a couple hundred years at best.
But that’s my head cannon. No reason yours cant have a happier ending I suppose.
Okay, I found my post. So for anyone interested, here are wordy words of wordiness re: my take on the Dragon’s Peace post-TG
We’ve seen in Avi’s future vision that even though the Seanchan refused to release any Aiel damane the Aiel held relative peace for 17 years after the last battle and while they’ve been killing Seanchan who venture too close to their camp they’re only now about to declare war on them. Also they were close to reaching an agreement before Tuon died and negotiations went *poof*.
But here’s the deal. The whole violent part of the conflict (killing and eventually war) was only possible because the Aiel were not part of the Dragon’s Peace. That allowed them to declare war on the the Seanchan and they in turn were free to retaliate without violating the treaty. Note that the Seanchan held the Peace with the Randland nations even after Tuon’s death and vice versa. They even held it after the Aiel went to war. It’s not until another 40 years later, when the Aiel drag Andor into their war with Seanchan, that the Peace actually crumbles. And that part has changed, now. The Aiel are part of the treaty and therefore cannot declare war on the Seanchan however much they might want. I’m cautiously optimistic that this ‘mutual ground’ on which both sides are put by the inclusion of the Aiel will give negotiations on the release of the damane the necessary time or even make them successful during Tuon’s reign. It might even make the prospect of abolishing the whole damane/slavery issue in Seanchan altogether much more feasible.
Think about it: Abandoning the very foundation of your nation’s power in face of an enemy who’s ready to be at your throat any second isn’t exactly something a lot of people would agree to. Even just releasing the Aiel damane would seem like a a very bad idea from a Seanchan point of view. You would have to deal with a lot (a LOT) of resistance to that plan. I can’t help but think that negotiations took so long due to that exact problem. After consolidating her reign and bringing order to her civil war ridden nation, Tuon would have had to tread extra, extra carefully and slowly to nudge Seanchan into that direction.
And honestly, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Tuon just happened to die and be replaced with a very conservative screw-progress-back-to-status-quo-slavery-YAY!-bring-me-some-delicious-Aiel-damane type Empress just as she was about to reach an agreement with the Aiel. By including the Aiel in the Dragon’s Peace, Rand might just have cleared the way for Seanchan entering a post-slavery society and resolving their differences with the Aiel and Channelers in general. Oh, and also ensured Tuon and Mat not meeting their untimely demise a mere decade or so after the Last Battle.
Very frustrating to read. Much more so than normal villain mustache twirling (“Mohahaha! You are my slaaave now!”) is the the certitude on the part of the antagonists that they are ‘right’ and proper. Also much more true to real life.
As for Ishy: I always thought that RJ was avoiding the Super-Powerful-yet-unable-to-kill-the-weakish-protaganist trope by having Rand be necessary for the ultimate victory of Dark Side. i.e. using the Creator’s champion to unlock the DO’s prison fully and destroy the the Wheel of time. It worked pretty well for me reading the series, as I always thought the D.O. was using is servants (Forsaken, Dark Friends, etc.) to help him get free so He could end existence, and Ishy was the only one who ‘got’ it for real because he was a nihilist and thought the ultimate end was inevitable. The Forsaken and everyone else on the Dark Side would be in for rude awakening if they ever ‘won’. But I’m not sure the ending bore this out. It seems that the D.O. was after world domination after all, just in a different way and Ishy was the one that was deceived.
Mat is using the general “you” here (and a bit of wordplay for Rand along with the glance). “If you can channel, you are an Aes Sedai.”
I was never confused by the line.
@20 dholm
If he is using the royal we general you, the “the Light help us all” doesn’t make much sense imho…
@21 Randalator: In context, it makes perfect sense. By Mat’s logic, they are up against Aes Sedai.
gadget @@@@@ 19
Interesting point that Ishy may be the one that was deceived. Or was going to be, if the DO won.
The Seanchan argument for damane doesn’t hold up. They say that someone can’t be trusted with that power, then turn around and give that power to someone else; the sul’dam is capable of making the leashed damane do whatever she wants, including the various terrible things that they’re afraid a loose damane might do on her own.
@@@@@ 24
I think the Seanchan argument is that the State is the only institution in society that should have that power, and that the head of state should be someone without that power. All damane in the end belong to the Crystal Throne. They’re only leased to others as the state seems fit (like Egeanin having one in her ship, but she still was in a state-sanctioned mission of invasion return to the lands of their ancestors).
Regarding superhuman registration act, if there were real human beings who could shoot lasers from their hands or eyes whenever they wanted, I’d want them to be registered. Just like gun ownership is registered in most places. Gun ownership is a choice, whereas superpowers isn’t (in most cases, it is a choice in the case of supergeniuses with equipment, like Tony Stark), but still I’d want that stuff regulated if it was real. And I don’t see the harm if the registration act is only about registration and maybe outlawing the superpower use in certain circumstances. Again, it may be not the case in the US, but where I live it’s illegal to own an assault rifle and to shoot at it randomly in the air for celebration.
And some superpowers would be even harder to just let go free than others. For example, imagine a character like the Envoy from the WildCards series, but with stronger powers. The Envoy has the power to emit pheromones that make whoever is near him agree with everything he says. So, imagine if he had stronger powers and you never actually realized you had been duped if you talked to him. Imagine if he asked you to have sex with him and you said yes. Was it of your own free choice or due to his powers, which he can’t ever stop making work (it’s pheromones). He could wear a special hazmat clothe to make noone smell him, but what if he refuses? Would it be right for others to force him to wear that? Or to force him to wear a badge saying “My superpower can take away your free will”? Though questions.
At The risk of irritating people (Leigh) I admire, I must ask this question:
“What is the difference, of course, between a Superhuman Registration Act …….. and Gun Registration? It is the overwhelming potential for such legislation to become so, functionally if not in name, that makes it so dangerous!
If a Superhuman Registration Act is dangerous, why is an abrogation of the 2nd Amendment not dangerous. Look around the real world and see what registration does to a citizenry.
The difference is that you are not born with a gun as part of your body.
@@@@@ 27 and 28
Please for the sake of civility and the grubby, tattered remains of my own sanity do not drag gun politics into a Tor reread discussion.
I have more than my belly full of the slanted propaganda from both sides of that debate every time I turn on a tv or read a newspaper or go to virtually any other site but this one. Please, please, please don’t drag it out here too.
Humans are in generally really shitty towards each other. Given power, they will virtually without exception try to dominate and/or annihilate those they have power over. Some governments are like that. Some governments are set up by smart people who take that into account and try to set up blocks and inhibitions to circumvent the worst of it–to varying degrees of success.
Xenophobia, genocide/”ethnic cleansing”, religious crusades, organized slave trades, modern human sex trafficking, and the list goes on. They’re all exactly what makes the Seanchan’s behavior so believable, and at the same time, so very hateful to people who live in relatively free societies.
What the Seanchan have done here is a lot like fun control. It has not gotten rid of the use of the One Power, it has reserved its use for the State and the elites. After all, while the ability to use the Power may be an innate and heritable trait, it often occurs in the lower classes of the people and the State cannot have that. One of the oldest moral objections to guns is that they enable a commoner to bring down a highly trained and equipped Lord.
If course, the White Tower itself is a more benevolent form of registration (as the Tower apparently does not believe that any channellers of significant strength are not Aes Sedai). In some ways the Tower is a nicer version of Babylon 5’s Psi Corps.
It’s very hard to think back and recall my exact feelings and thoughts upon encountering the Seanchan again, and this time discovering the truly horrible, awful practice they not only condoned but insisted was right and good and necessary, and that it must be forced upon others until they too convert. What I think I can recall is that I wasn’t quite as enraged as Leigh was (at least not at first). What I was, was nauseated. I had to put the book down too, but to keep from getting sick. Just everything about the situation, the sul’dam‘s tone, the ‘logic’, the attitude, the things they could do to Egwene, their conviction, the whole thing about damane eventually coming to believe they were meant to be leashed and to even love their sul’dam…it was absolutely horrifying and still is. (Yes more of this comes out in the upcoming chapters, but the notion was mentioned and planted here, so I bring it up.)
The rage came in with the way Renna treated Egwene of course, and what happened to Min, for which I can only look ahead and be so very glad Mat kills Renna in CoT. But in the end I think my aversion to the Seanchan was as much based on disgust and despair as it was hate and fury, and it remains so to this day. Leigh did touch on this later of course when she was disgusted by how the damane were spoken and thought of in the Ebou Dar chapters, and in Tuon’s thoughts, but I think it bears pointing out right here at the outset.
Not much else to say, other than to note Liandrin’s reveal as Black did, of course, make me immediately start kicking myself for ever buying she walked in the Light, and I had to laugh at how Jordan misled me at least by making her so Obviously Evil I concluded it couldn’t be what it seemed. Talk about Captain Obvious Twist! I also had to laugh at him immediately revealing Suroth was Dark too. On the one hand, her attitude and behavior were such a gimme that this time he didn’t even bother to hide it, and knowing about her allowed all future scenes with her and the Seanchan to have that foreboding sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop, especially once Mat was in her company for so long. On the other hand, while it might seem like an attempt to say “the Seanchan aren’t as bad as they seem, because this group is led by a Darkfriend”, it’s immediately clear that the way the sul’dam act toward damane is standard and nothing to do with the Shadow. So if Jordan revealing Suroth’s allegiance was supposed to mitigate things in any way, it failed.
But I think it wasn’t. I think he revealed it solely for the dramatic tension, and for the contrast…to precisely show that people could be doing something as horrible as collaring channelers and not have to be followers of the Dark One to do it. (Granted, Ishy had his hand in it somewhat, both in poisoning Artur and Luthair’s minds against channelers and in things he apparently did in Seanchan proper, but the choice to embrace collaring as a cultural institution, and the attitudes and beliefs which developed over the centuries afterward, all happened without much if any Shadow influence, I’d wager.)
Quick side note for Chapter 41: I had to chuckle at Mat doubting the stories about the Seanchan exotics, considering he ends up meeting most of them in the flesh in Ebou Dar, counts on them greatly during the Last Battle, and even ends up riding a one to get to Shayol Ghul. Ah, irony.
Regarding the confusion about who does and doesn’t know about Rand being a channeler: I got the impression that either Verin was keeping her voice down when she berated Rand after the Stone incident, no one was close enough to hear, or everyone was still too traumatized by what happened to pay attention. As for this scene…eh. Despite the proximity, I think Masema was still riding up when Mat spoke, so he didn’t get to hear what was said since he arrived right afterward. Ingtar…may have moved out of earshot, and Jordan just didn’t mention it for some unfortunate reason. It’s possible that he had orders from the Dark One, or Ishy, or even Verin, that made him have to pretend he didn’t know what Rand could do, but his attitude later about male channelers seems to put paid to that notion.
(Though I guess even if he knew Rand could channel, that doesn’t mean he would naturally assume there were other male channelers around–after all, people had believed for centuries they had been wiped out by the Aes Sedai, with the only time channelers showed up being when there was a false Dragon. And in almost every case that was a solitary channeler rather than a group; I think the only ones who had channeling followers were Guaire Amalasan and Raolin Darksbane?) It could also be that Mat’s increasing instability due to the dagger caused everyone, including Ingtar, to discount anything he said about Rand as just raving. But it’s probably more likely Ingtar just wasn’t supposed to have heard Mat, and Jordan didn’t write it clearly.
As for why Ishy didn’t kill Rand this early on…I always got the impression that at this stage of the game, Rand’s surmise that he was the Dark One wasn’t as far off the mark as it seemed. As in, that because he had gone so insane from use of the True Power, the Dark One was able to influence and control him far more than he could as Moridin. Not to the point he was his vessel the way Shaidar Haran was, but enough that his desire to turn Lews Therin to the Shadow overrode Ishy’s desires to end it all. And it was Ishy resisting this goal and trying to kill Rand (and dying) that merited punishment, not masquerading as the Dark One.
Even if that’s not the case, I think Ishy’s insanity is such that it’s a lot harder for him to retain his own personality and goals the way he could as Moridin. Though it could well be that if Rand joined the Shadow, that would make it as easy for the Dark One to win and end everything (or so Ishy believed) as him facing the Dark One at Tarmon Gai’don and losing. More so, even, since a Dragon serving the Shadow would make it a lot easier to break the Dark One free so he could destroy the world than fighting the Dragon first.
Interesting dreamshard effects here too: Ishy was able to make it so the banner didn’t actually burn, it was all in his/Rand’s head, but he also could allow the burning of the chair to be real. But I guess when you’re in control of reality like that, it’s easy to pick and choose (and it just adds to the mind screw nature of it all, something to set Rand even more ill at ease).
@2 AndrewHB: That’s an interesting theory. Not sure if it holds water, but it’s certainly intriguing to think about. Completely agree about the Seanchan. As for Nynaeve, I imagine they would force her to break her block, somehow. Though at first they’d probably have to just make her angry, and then get her to focus it on something else so that she didn’t just keep attacking her sul’dam and hurting herself.
@3 birgit: Entering TAR is a dreamwalking skill which has nothing to do with channeling, as proven by the Wise One dreamwalkers who are not channelers. So while you need to sleep to be in TAR, I don’t think the requirement about Spirit being all you can channel while sleeping would apply. Notice how the Supergirls could channel more than Spirit in TAR when they used the ring (which didn’t require channeling). Not sure about the other dream ter’angreal, since they did actively require channeling to work, but I seem to recall the Supergirls and the Salidar Six could channel other weaves, albeit more weakly and ephemerally, so I think this might be a case of the Aes Sedai being wrong about the Power again. (To be fair, no one had studied the dream ter’angreal except Corianin Nedeal, so short of anything in the Tower library, how could the Aes Sedai know?) Rand and Rahvin and Ishy could use more than just Spirit, but not only were they also dreamwalking and not channeling their way into TAR, in most cases they were also there in the flesh.
@@.-@ andy: Good point.
@5 KalvinKingsley: That’s a pretty good way of resolving the discrepancy!
@6 Erunion: That…makes a lot of sense. While I’m not completely certain it can work, since the Dark One is revealed to be the source of all evil in Randland (and thus of extreme power) and the only reason the Pattern can affect him and his actions is because the Bore is part of it and thus makes the Pattern part of his prison, your reasoning is pretty sound. After all, as we’ve always wondered, how could the Creator imprison the Dark One if they were truly of equal power? And if they are not, that would imply the Dark One didn’t have the power to destroy creation, since to do so he’d need to be as strong as the one who created it in the first place. The fact the Dragon could destroy creation, both because of his role as the Creator’s champion and his being a part of the Pattern, makes perfect sense and does explain both Dragonmount and the conflict in the darkness at the Pit of Doom.
@7 MinNotElmindreda: Glad someone else had the same reaction as me!
@10 alreadymad: Good point re: Hawkwing, although being the Dragon’s adversary doesn’t necessarily mean he was his only or ultimate adversary; as we’ve seen, Rand had plenty of adversaries besides Ishydin, and that isn’t even just referring to the other Forsaken.
@12 CireNaes: Yes. Whether hatred or disgust, whatever I felt was always directed at the actual beliefs and practices, not the Seanchan as a people. (Individual Seanchan like Renna, on the other hand, are still fair game IMO.)
@16, 18 Randalator: I think you have a good basis for your reasoning, and that you are right.
@19 gadget: I don’t know. I got the impression it was more that the Dark One would have been happy either way, that while he ultimately wanted to destroy creation, if he could only end up ruling/subverting/dominating it, he’d settle for that.
macster @31
I would think if he was in play at the same time and the opposite side as the Dragon, he would be the one. After all, he was leading this generation’s band of Heroes of the Horn. That suggests he was an archetype of the warleader, soldier-king extraordinaire, just like the Dragon was an archetype of the massively powerful channeler, or Birgit as that of a deadly archer.
Just a small comment. Almost all real human cultures had, in some time of their history, used slavery. Of course I’m not using this as an argument to defend it (who does it, by the way?) but that just means that even the Seanchan can be redeem as a nation…
On a related note, it’s interesting that as far as I know, every time the security vs freedom question arises in fictional media, the freedom side is the best/correct one… Do we all have a bias to believed that freedom is more important than security, or is it really like that? I would like to know of a story where the contrary happens add see if it fell right…
As a disclaimer, I do not have a strong stance on the question. I love freedom as much as every one, but I’m also concern that complete freedom to every one could mean that some would have less freedom by the action of others… And that a human life is more important than a moral concept.
Something I hadn’t ever thought before, but when Mat says ‘that makes you Aes Sedai’ etc. could they think he’s talking about Verin? He only glances at Rand, which implies that he looks away quickly.
@33 Exactly. I agree with everyone, the Seanchan and their slavery are really bad. But, you know, America has slavery in her history. As does all of Europe. Rome was built on a very large foundation of slavery. Do we get sick and throw our books against the wall every time we read something about the Roman Empire? No, we think, boy, that culture had some serious problems, I’m glad we don’t do that slavery stuff any more, but their history sure is interesting and the stories of some of their people (such as Caesar) sure are great tales of adventure and conquest and political intrigue. I mean, think of Ben Hur. He was a slave, then he was the adopted son of his former master and a high roller in the capitol city of the Empire. Pretty cool. Did he end slavery in the Empire? No. Because that kind of thing takes centuries of gradual social change.
@9 – I actually think Matt falling in with the Senchean is right in line with his character arc. He’s virtually thrown together with Tuon and convinced that he must marry her, so his falling in love with her never bothered me. He’s also been the single biggest detractor of the OP of all the Tier 1 characters, he wants nothing to do with it, he won’t allow himself to be healed by it, and he consistently puts as much distance between himself and any OP channelers. So I’m not surprised that he could compartmentalize the whole damane thing as something to deal with after the LB.